In
Conversation with Dorian Yates
By
Brian D. Johnston
BDJ: Your
first serious application to exercise, being brief, intense
and infrequent training, was highly influenced by Arthur Jones
and Mike Mentzer. What led you to choose that direction as
opposed to more traditional methods?
DY: I'm a
very logical thinker and the information from both Jones and
Mentzer came across in a logical manner. I'm also the type of
person that if I'm going to do something, I will look into the
nature of the action first, analyze it, and obtain as much
information about it as I can. I don't recall how I came
across all the information necessary to make my decision, but
I did try to collect as much data as possible, decipher it and
see what made sense. I then combined that information with
practical experience and listening closely to my body. I
quickly found that once I surpassed a certain level of volume
or frequency, I experienced the signs of overtraining, i.e.,
you're not recovering, you don't sleep well, your nervous
system is run down, and you no longer make progress. That
clearly indicated to me that I needed to cut back and alter my
approach slightly.
Over the years I refined my program based on the principles
and relationships of intensity, volume, frequency and adequate
recuperation. So, although I read information by Jones and
Mentzer, and having spoken to and trained with Mentzer a few
times, I took what they said and combined it with traditional
methods and created my own hybrid of high intensity training.
I do not agree with some of the things stated by Jones and
Mentzer, including training the whole body in one session.
BDJ: I
concur. After training legs, I'm pretty much spent... if not
physically, at least mentally.
DY: Yes...
it's just too much. Some things sound fine in theory, but they
don't work out in practice. So, you have to combine the two.
This is where you read or think about the theoretical
approach, then apply it to your training, making adjustments
along the way. If it doesn't work out practically, then
there's your answer. You don't beat yourself up and say,
"well, why is it not working?" You have to move on
and look at something else, but while adhering to the
principles of high intensity.
I have taken whatever information I have found useful and
discarded the rest. I have done this with people from the
lowest ranks of bodybuilding all the way to the top, including
Mentzer and Jones. I'm always willing to learn something new.
But in all, no one has ever been my trainer or nutritionist.
Rather, I listened to suggestions and took what I wanted and
discovered what did and did not work for me. That's what
appealed to me about bodybuilding... that I was responsible
for winning or losing.
BDJ: Did you
apply any particular training tactics or intensity variables
to lagging muscle groups?
DY: That's
pretty much what I would do. For lagging muscle groups I would
train them at the start of a workout or close to the start,
when my mental and physical energy levels were higher. I would
also use different intensity techniques, but not all at the
same time. Obviously I would train to failure, then include
forced reps and additional negatives some times.
I did always emphasize the negative since it is just as
important or more important than the positive portion, which a
lot of people forget as they concentrate only on lifting the
weight. Damage primarily occurs during the negative phase,
which is responsible for the growth response. When I did
negatives at the end, they were done on machines due to better
control.
I would also sometimes do a modified rest pause, training
heavy for 5-6 reps, resting for about 10 seconds, then
squeezing out another 1-2 reps. I also did drop sets,
performing 6-8 reps to failure, dropping the weight down a
bit, then going for another 3-4 reps to failure, or even
partials at the end of the set. I tried pre-exhaustion, but it
did not work for me... an example of traditional
high-intensity methodology that sounds good in theory, but did
not fare well in practice. People often make the mistake that
if they have a lagging muscle group that they should increase
the volume or frequency, and that's not going to help.
BDJ:
Regarding pre-exhaustion, I know of some individuals who
obtained excellent results from the technique. Obviously it
comes down to the individual. You, for example, probably have
an extremely high rate of fast twitch throughout your body and
a very fast rate of fatigue.
DY: I did
perform pre-exhaustion in the past, but only in a straight set
fashion. For example, I would start off my leg work with leg
extensions, then follow that up with a rest before moving on
to leg presses. I found traditional pre-exhaustion to be more
aerobic... much more of a cardiovascular workout and not
enough of a muscular workout. Doing traditional pre-exhaustion
was one of the hardest workouts I ever performed... I could
hardly breathe... but I did not feel it gave me optimum muscle
stimulation. I had to vary the method and rest sufficiently.
BDJ: Did you
find that it was a need for physical or mental rest?
DY: It was
more physical, but it was also mental. While you're doing leg
extensions and you know you will soon be doing leg presses,
your focus becomes divided. In the back of your mind you know
that you have to jump off one machine and head over to
another. I like to stimulate, annihilate, then rest. I don't
believe in rushing between exercises. To me, rushing the sets
is an aerobic workout. Moving quickly from one exercise to
another will often result in cardiovascular failure,
especially for the leg muscles since they are so large.
BDJ: Did you
ever implement training protocol that proved detrimental to
your progress?
DY: My
biggest mistake was probably trying to use the same weights
and same intensity (i.e., training beyond failure) right up to
competition. High-intensity techniques are great for
stimulating growth if you have sufficient calories and rest.
But when you get ready for a competition, your goal should
shift toward maintaining muscle and reducing the injury
factor. This is especially true if your energy and body fat
levels are low and you're pushing your muscles and joints
hard. Also, when dieting and training hard you don't sleep so
well, which means you can't focus as well. All those factors
increase your risk of injury. This also increases your risk of
being catabolic because you're applying all that stress, and
lack of calories and rest make it harder to recover. If I were
to do it all again, I would downshift to training to failure
only, or even subfailure, stopping 1-2 reps short of all-out
effort. This would give enough stimulation to maintain the
muscle while you concentrate on reducing body fat.
BDJ: I
understand you have a preference to free weights.
DY: No, not
particularly. There are a lot of core exercises that are ideal
with free weights, but if you analyze my routines over the
years, it's been a combination of machines and free weights. I
think both have their advantages and disadvantages, and a
combination of the two is better than exclusively using one.
BDJ: Do you
find that you can perform less exercise with machines? I find
that there is more direct and greater stimulation with
machines, making for greater inroads since there is no effort
utilized in balancing the weight.
DY: Not
necessarily. Primarily, I find that machines better isolate
the muscle and you don't have to expend energy balancing the
weight, unlike free weight training. But one of the
disadvantages of machines is, they produce a set plane of
movement... a set pathway. Whether I use it or you use it,
it's the same pathway. But if I perform a dumbbell curl, then
you performed a dumbbell curl, and it was analyzed on a
computer and video screen, you would see that both followed a
different pathway. Each follows a more natural and individual
set of biomechanics.
BDJ:
Neurologically, free weights probably have an advantage in
that regard.
DY: Yes, and
that is why I find they are so much better for strength and
power training, and athletic training. Consequently, there are
some things you can do with machines and not free weights, and
some things you can do with free weights and not machines, and
vice versa. The best situation is a combination of both.
BDJ: What
psychological techniques do you employ prior to and during
your workouts?
DY: I keep a
training and nutrition diary. Every workout would be logged,
such as exercises, weight used, etc. Before I go to the gym I
would review the last workout, the weight, reps, and visualize
what I wanted to do that day, to the point of wearing certain
clothes on certain days, just to get myself in the right frame
of mind. I would visualize how much weight I was going to
lift, for how many reps, and how I was going to do the
exercises. By the time I got to the gym I would be totally
psyched up and know what goals I wanted to achieve. I would
then replay that mental tape while going through the workout.
BDJ: I don't
believe there are many bodybuilders, including professionals,
who track their progress or maintain a training log.
DY: I've had
certain bodybuilders ask me questions on training. I would ask
them what they did last time, or last year. They would reply,
"I'm not really sure... I can't really remember."
You're never going to learn anything if that's the case. If
you keep a record you can see how you progress, how your body
reacts, what works and what didn't. That allows you to refine
it. But if you leave it to guesswork, it's like a captain on a
ship without mapping out a course, floating out there and
hoping to get where he wants to get.
BDJ: Perhaps
two of the most common questions asked professional
bodybuilders are: What drugs have you used, and how much did
you spend yearly on drugs? Do you care to answer?
DY: I get
asked these questions whenever I do seminars. There exists a
fine line. I don't want to be evasive as if I'm trying to keep
secrets. But I also have a responsibility where I do not like
to recommend or speak of doses because a lot of people read
the magazines including young kids. Certain magazines, and
certain people who write for the magazines, are being very
irresponsible in recommending certain things, or that
"all the pros do this and that". In one article I
was even horrified to read what the pros supposedly do. It
gets to a point where it is believed that it has nothing to do
with the way the person trains or genetics, but drug use. Then
the kids read that, believe it's true and think all they need
are the drugs. I will say that I did not use anything that was
not accessible to any other bodybuilder. I took nothing out of
the ordinary. But, with me living in England in an isolated
area and breaking barriers in muscular size, all kinds of
rumors were started. I used the same thing as everybody
else... deca durabolin, testosterone, orals... they've all
been out there for 20-30 years. People think that they can
take this stuff and make incredible gains. It doesn't work
that way. Steroids help the muscle building process, but they
are not solely responsible. You still need to train hard, eat
well, and get sufficient rest.
BDJ:
Your before and after photos in the early 1990s are legendary
and very impressive (see photos to left). Was that a period
when you first experimented with gH?
DY: Actually
it wasn't. I used it before then. The reason that I made such
progress that year was due to the fact that I knew Haney was
retiring and I needed a slight edge over the other competitors
who were smaller than myself. I wanted to come in super hard
and super conditioned and bigger than ever. And in previous
years I sacrificed too much muscle and came down too much. I
was pretty much in contest condition 5-6 weeks out, but kept
dieting and coming down... trying to get harder and harder. I
then analyzed and realized that I needed to rectify the
problem and knew I could come in much bigger and in the same
condition without sacrificing as much muscle. So, it was a
nutrition change I made from 1992 to 1993 that made the
difference. I know that is hard for some people to believe,
but that's the way it is.
BDJ: I
understand what you're saying since the effect can be dramatic
on a short-term scale. For instance, eating certain foods,
combinations or amounts can make you look more full and
thicker or look worse within hours.
DY: And if
your body fat gets very low, it's that much easier to burn
muscle tissue, which is what I decided to avoid.
BDJ: On to
business! You offer books and a video, as well as a supplement
line and personal training services.
DY: Yes. I
have my own website, www.dorianyates.net, which has
information on phone consultations and personal programs, as
well as learning resources. My supplement line, Dorian Yates
Approved, is doing very well in England and Europe. We
recently started in the States. The supplement line is
centered around protein and a meal supplement. How it began is
that I have a friend in England involved in the supplement
industry. He had the idea of getting together and starting a
line of products. But if I was to be involved, it was agreed
from the start that I would have a say in product standards,
materials, research and development. The protein and meal
supplements are unique and the most effective on the market in
that they contain undenatured whey protein, unlike some
products that are the result of cheese manufacturing. Our
undenatured proteins have retained the important growth
factors that are necessary for building lean tissue. Our
products also contain probiotics, which have an effect on the
intestinal system and general health. Those using it are
sticking with it because they are getting results. It took us
over a year to research and develop our protein and meal
supplement products. Your readers can visit our supplement
website at www.propeptide.com.
BDJ: Can you
give an overview of your training when you first started,
versus your Mr. Olympia years and your current protocol?
DY: When I
first started training, it was based on the more conventional
(magazine routines), but quickly realized that it wasn't
working that well and I was overtraining. The tendency was for
everyone in the gym to follow what everyone else was doing, or
what the guys at the top were doing and what the magazines
were recommending. Combined with the literature from Jones and
Mentzer, I devised my own routine. From what I recall, my
first high intensity routine was a two-way split, training
three days a week. For example, on week one I performed upper
body, lower body, upper body. It wasn't exactly that, but it
will give you an idea. The following week I performed lower
body, upper body, lower body. I alternated in this fashion,
training each muscle group twice every second week and only
once the other weeks. On a longer scale, I hit everything
twice every nine days. That worked well for me. By the time I
got to the first Mr. Olympia, I was doing a four-way split...
two days in the gym, one day off, two days in the gym, one day
off, etc. I found that as I got bigger and stronger, I could
not work half my body in one session and had to split it up
even more. Here, again, we're deviating from what Arthur Jones
was recommending, and to a lesser degree Mike Mentzer, doing
the whole body or half the body in one workout. Even though I
wasn't doing a tremendous volume, it was still too much to be
doing several muscle groups at once. I do believe that you
require a certain amount of volume, in terms of different
exercises. I don't think you can go in the gym and train your
chest or back adequately using only one exercise.
BDJ: That is
a good point. What I've noticed with a lot of HIT followers is
that they're going toward the extreme of a consolidation
routine, i.e., squats, deadlifts, bench presses, dips,
pulldowns. With myself, I increased strength tremendously by
performing very few core exercises, but I progressively looked
worse.
DY: Some
people say that when a muscle fires, it fires... and that the
need to train at different angles is irrational. But this does
not make complete sense. We all know that when you perform
certain exercises, you can see the results... a physical
change. It is apparent that if you only performed shoulder
presses, versus shoulder presses, lateral raises, bent raises,
cable raises, etc., all at different angles, that the
shoulders look different in each instance. Similarly, if you
only perform decline or flat chest presses, you get more in
the lower region of the pectorals, but not much in the upper
region. It should be apparent then that different exercises at
different angles affect a muscle differently and affect how
your physique looks. So, you should train with a variety of
exercises, and at different angles.
BDJ: Yes, and
this can be done on a rotational basis. You don't have to
perform all the exercises in one workout. I also find that a
person requires enough of the variety, in terms of set volume.
For example, if one were to enter a 12-week physique
transformation contest, you cannot make dramatic changes by
simply performing a handful of exercises once every 7-9 days,
a la consolidation training.
DY: No you
can't. You can't get the whole physique. You will increase
strength and get basic development, but you will not get full
development of all muscle groups. It just isn't possible. You
can't develop your lat width and thickness, rhomboids,
trapezius, and lower back with just one exercise.
BDJ: Even in
respects to metabolic conditioning and reducing fat stores,
there must be enough volume. Casey Viator made a comment in
the Summer 2000 Exercise Protocol that he often approached
overtraining by the time he competed. He had to do so much to
get into the condition he wanted to be in and that it was that
different from off-season mass building training.
DY: I don't
agree with that. Obviously if you do more activity you're
going to burn more calories. Building muscle is exactly that,
and maintaining muscle is basically the same thing. The idea
is to reduce body fat by having a negative calorie balance and
by increasing your calorie burning expenditure. I don't
believe increasing the volume of weight training workouts is
an efficient way of doing it. It will work, but I prefer an
aerobic approach, being more of a pure fat burner.
BDJ: How do
you apply your aerobic training when preparing for a contest.
DY: The
weight training I did in the off-season and in-season was
pretty much the same. So, to burn the fat, besides lowering
calories, I performed aerobics up to one hour a day. I did
half-hour in the morning and half-hour in the evening, or as
needed. It wasn't high intensity aerobic training, but low in
intensity, so I used primarily fat for energy. You can lose
fat by increasing exercises and sets, but you run the risk of
being more catabolic and losing muscle tissue. It makes it
more difficult to recover from a higher than normal volume of
training as well.
BDJ: How is
your training today? I assume you're still working out?
DY: Yes, I'm
still working out and pretty much on the same schedule. The
intensity is a little bit lower, mainly due to my triceps
injury. I have to be very careful because there's an imbalance
between the left and right side. Consequently, I do tend to
use more machines, and for my upper body especially. There's
another advantage of machine training... allowing you to work
around injuries without worrying about coordination and
balance.
BDJ: Sergio
Oliva has fairly bad arthritis throughout his entire body,
necessitating the need for mostly machine training. He finds
free weight training, and all the balancing that goes along
with free weights, too aggravating to the joints.
DY: In an
ideal world, and if I didn't have any injuries, I would use
more free weights. I wouldn't want to train exclusively with
machines, but that's not where I'm at right now. So, I just do
what I can do and what I have to.
BDJ: I assume
there's no chance of coming out of retirement, that you've had
it with competition?
DY: I made
the decision to retire, mainly because of the injury and
because I've been competing for a long time. The only thing
left to achieve was if I could better my physique. But with
the injury and all the rehab I went through, I knew that
wasn't going to be possible. And I definitely didn't want to
go back and be anything less than my best.
BDJ: Exactly.
Regarding dieting, it seems the final week before competition
is most crucial. Bodybuilders become mentally stressed,
believing they look much worse than they actually are.
DY: That's
definitely true. You can look in the mirror one minute and
think you look great. Then ten minutes later you're not so
sure. Obviously things didn't change, but your mind can play
tricks on you. A lot of people tend to do crazy stuff the
final week because they're in that state of mind. They do
everything consistently, looking better and better, then
during the last week or last few days they do something to
completely screw things up. Although you have to be flexible,
you need a plan and must and stick to it.
BDJ: Have you
bothered with carb depletion and loading or altering water
intake?
DY: I've
always worked with my carbs and it works very well for me. It
doesn't work for some, and perhaps different physiques respond
differently to macronutrient intake. I have refined it over
the years to know exactly what was working, what wasn't
working and why. There wasn't too much hit and miss, although
sometimes when I look back I could have increased a little
here or there to be in slightly better condition. I always
kept records, tracking everything I did, right up to the last
week before competition. I would then look over my records and
compare the information to how I looked and then made
adjustments.
BDJ: With
nutrition in general, what were your protein, fat and carb
ratios?
DY: My first
concern was making certain I had adequate protein in regular
intervals throughout the day. I averaged 1.5 grams per pound
of body weight. Then it was just a matter of balancing the
rest of the calories I needed between fat and carbohydrates.
I'm not sure of the exact percentages, but it was probably
around 30-40% protein, 50% carbs and 15-20% fat. It varied,
but I saw the fats and carbohydrates as energy foods, and of
course the necessity of essential fatty acids for the nervous
system, etc.
BDJ: There
seems to be a move toward very high protein and fat and very
low carb.
DY: Again,
that may vary with people's metabolisms and how they respond
to insulin produced by carbohydrates. But, for me, my diet was
fairly high in carbohydrates. When low in carbohydrates, I
lost size, my physique flattened out, and I would lose energy
very quickly.
BDJ: I also
noticed all the above effects. I once went on a very high
protein diet for several months and my body never did adjust
to it. I had to eventually increase carb intake to around
40-50%.
DY: Even carb
depleting for me meant almost 200 grams of carbs a day. That
was low for me, and it was pretty rough after 2-3 days on
that. But for others that would be considered moderate.
BDJ: I
noticed that about your diet... that you did not take carb
depletion to extreme. Rather you introduced a reduction to
'some' extent, which was sufficient to be a deficit.
DY: The
general rule was to decrease my carbs by 50%. I averaged
between 400-450 grams per day, some days being a bit higher or
lower than others. When I decreased carbs to 200 grams for
about three days, I would increase volume slightly to
accelerate glycogen depletion. I was also careful in
increasing protein and fats so the overall calorie level was
the same. Not only do some people reduce carbs too much, not
having much for energy, but they don't replace those lost
calories and begin to burn muscle tissue. Prior to competition
I would then up my carbs to about 1000 grams per day. During
the off-season it was around 700-800 carbs a day, so the
slight increase above normal made an additional difference.
BDJ: Your
caloric intake must have averaged around 5000-6000 per day.
DY: It was
around 5500-6000... yes. Of that, my protein was around
400-450 grams per day.
BDJ: You're
currently working with Ernie Taylor. How is that going and how
does he train?
DY: It's
going well. His training is fairly brief, particularly
compared to the other pros. I think that once I won the
Olympia in 1993, and it was publicized about the kind of
workouts I was doing, it produced an impact in the sport. I'm
not saying that everyone began training the way I did, but the
volume and frequency among the pros has reduced quite a bit
from ten years ago to today. Nearly everybody was doing
3-days-on-1-day-off, 3-days-on-1-day-off, etc. They trained
each body part twice a week. Now, most guys are training each
body part once every 5-6 days with reduced volume.
BDJ: Except
Lee Priest, who claims to be training up to 30 sets per muscle
group.
DY: Yes...
but he's got a great physique.
BDJ: He's
also young. I had a lot of energy when I was his age, and did
some pretty wild workouts. I look back on those days and don't
know how I did it.
DY: Yes... I
look back, and I used to train chest, back and shoulders in
one workout and probably more volume than I do now. But it
still produced results.
BDJ: What you
would change about the sport of bodybuilding?
DY:
Education. People don't really understand what goes into
creating a great physique. If you watch a sport, like
basketball, you can see and appreciate the ability of the
athlete. With bodybuilding competition you only see the end
product. If you're into it, you can appreciate the physique,
but to the average person it looks like something strange and
extreme. They don't know the dedication or hard work... or the
knowledge of nutrition. They should combine television
coverage with actual documentary on the person's training and
what they do to get ready. When I was competing in the
Olympia, I got some requests from television shows, and that
is always what I wanted to do... to talk and discuss what is
involved in the sport. And when people become educated on the
process they appreciate it and look at it differently. But my
experience with TV people is that they were not interested in
that... in sitting and talking about it. They wanted me to
come in the studio and pose, then ask some questions. I
wouldn't go for that. I said "that if you had another
athlete come in, a sprinter for example, you wouldn't have him
run around the studio... or have a basketball player bounce
the basketball. Rather, you would sit the person down and talk
to him. And that's what I'm prepared to do." That did not
interest them. But to have a bodybuilder come in wearing
trunks and posing... that person becomes an object and a
spectacle.
BDJ: Do you
find you have actually obtained the notoriety from your
country that you deserve?
DY:
Definitely not in England. I'm more recognized in the States.
BDJ: Is that
due to bodybuilding not being very popular in Great Britain?
DY: It's not
really popular. It's got a good hardcore following and there
are quite a few decent bodybuilders in England, as you
probably know. But it's a very small community... an
underground thing. It's not something that doesn't cross over
to the general public... not like in the States. There, I find
I'm more widely recognized over a much broader cross section
of people... people who are not necessarily bodybuilders, but
who go to gyms... who are into fitness, health and nutrition
and appreciate bodybuilding much more. I get people from all
walks of life in the States who recognize me.
Visit
Dorian's sites and pick up some motivational materials and
supplements. For hardcore books, clothing, video and poster go
to www.dorianyates.net.
For Dorian Yates Approved supplements, go to www.propeptide.com.
